Edit: I wrote a second post that added a clarification about the difference between what I meant by “weight” and “weighted leg”, because I realise that this post isn’t very clear on the subject. I’ve left the rest of this post unedited.
Here’s the good news: our recent podcast about Yi Quan seems to have upset far fewer people than our one about Baguazhang. In general, reaction to the Yi Quan podcast has been positive. It’s a good point to remind people that our Heretics podcast isn’t a history podcast, it’s a podcast about the miasma – cultural assumptions and how they have played a role in the development of various arts, religions and institutions throughout history. The episode was as much about Xing Yi as it was about Yi Quan, and also the kind of tradition of criticism that the founder, Wang Xiangzhai, baked into it.
As we discussed in the podcast, Wang Xiangzhai’s criticism can be viewed as “the spirit of the times” speaking through him. At the time it was required to talk down to “rotten old traditions”, of which Xing Yi was an example (China has never really had a free press). You can read some of Wang’s criticisms in his article “Essence of Boxing Science”, which is an interview he did, turned into an essay.
He says about Xing Yi: “ It must be noted that Xing Yi Quan in its orthodox form had no such thing as the Twelve Forms (Twelve Animals), though their should be twelve forms of the body. Nor did it have the theory of mutual promotion and restraint of the five elements.”
Actually I’d agree with him – that is the way Xing Yi should be practiced. The animals are not “forms”. That was the general theme of the podcast – there’s very little difference between Yi Quan and Xing Yi done right.
However, Yi Quan people still like to criticise 🙂
I read a post recently by a (good) practitioner of Yi Quan criticising Xing Yi’s punching method – using Beng Quan as an example.
“It still baffles me when I see xingyiquan people Beng Chuan without turning the waist and shoulders, even worse almost hopping on the rear leg as all the weight is held back.”
I’d agree with him – you need movement in your body using your spine as an axis – it’s no use being like an inflexible lump of wood. And, yes, “hopping” is another mistake. Don’t hop.
But we do hold the weight on the back leg in a lot of movements. This is the hardest thing (I think) for people new to Xing Yi to understand. How can you generate force without putting your weight into the front leg?
That’s a good question to ask a Xing Yi practitioner, because they should be able to punch you and show you 🙂
“Every punch must have 2 important components:
Shift of weight. [to front leg]
Transference of kinetic chain from lower to upper extremity.”
Well, yes, but with caveats. That’s certainly how you generally punch in boxing, or in other martial arts. However, let’s remember that people in these arts can still generate power while retreating – enough to knock somebody out. Anderson Silva famously knocked out Forrest Griffin, while stepping backwards to avoid his rushing attack. So the situation is clearly not as cut and dried as some would like.
I’m not really into hitting things much these days – I prefer the joys of pyjama wrestling on soft mats (with minimal brain injury), but I thought I’d make a short video to show you can generate force without putting your weight into the front leg, as Xing Yi teaches us, and that maybe we should all keep an open mind on the matter.
If you look at my front leg in the video you’ll see I never put my weight onto it. It steps out in front of the body, then the back leg catches up. Obviously, it holds some weight, but the weight is ‘held’ mainly on the back leg. This is how you’re supposed to do it in my line of Xing Yi. You can, of course, also do it with a weighted front leg, but the principle of “Chicken Leg” is that one leg holds the weight – it doesn’t matter which one – and we don’t need to transfer the weight between legs to generate force, instead, the force comes from correct stepping and body movement (Dragon body).
Yes, I know need to get a bag to hit, but instead I’ve got a tennis ball on a string to play with (we go with what we’ve got available, right?) I’ll get a bag at some point and do another video.
Why do it like this? Good question.
i) You arrive quicker to where it is you’re getting to – it’s much more “all at once” than having to transfer weight between the legs. It’s sharper and better if you’re looking to intercept the opponent (Jeet) which matters most in weapons fighting, where timing is much finer than with fists (Xing Yi comes from weapons, spear being the main one).
ii) You keep your body “back”, which is better for defence. Leaning too much into things is a great way to get knocked out, as we all know. Or with weapons, you want to keep the vital organs as far back as you can. If you look at the Xing Yi Classics it says things like “do not wither and do not be greedy” – you need to keep a reserved attitude to fighting, especially with weapons.
In other news – the blossom is coming out on the cherry tree – you might be able to see it in the video. Spring is here!
7 thoughts on “Yi Quan people (usually) don’t understand Xing Yi”
Stomping the ground?
But I guess Chinese people are “just built different”.
Btw; in Taiwan, there is none of this stomping nonsense, because they know real Kung Fu, and not just a bunch of “dead arts” with imaginary interpretations.
All those fake Kung Fu masters in mainland China, they get their butts kicked by amateurs or random guys picked off the street. They’re all frauds doing weird dances in silk pyjamas.
Like the guy in that video. One glance at him and I can see how terrible his body mechanics are, no matter how well he executes the *choreography*.
Xingyi is a no nonsense martial art based on real world fighting. Save the “woo woo” for those who care.
Nice to exchange opinion. Different styles/arts may have different views. However science should be the same.
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Graham, I have a 300-pound heavy-bag hanging underneath my back deck. I hit it. You just told me that you have no idea what I’m talking about. I’m telling you the same thing that is shown, demonstrated, and analyzed in the video I posted with Chen Xiang. It’s your blog though; don’t let me interrupt.
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Mike, I think you and your crowd have been hitting the air for so long you’ve forgotten the point of all this. The point is to hit a person, not the ground. That’s what the real “thunder sound” is. It only goes into the ground because you’re punching air. When you hit a person in Xing Yi your power goes into them. Sending it into the ground, to then send it into them is a massive waste of time. It’s good if you want to push somebody and look good by making them hop backwards though. 😉
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Graham, I’m not sure what “line of Xingyi” that you do, but pretty much everybody in China is aware of the characteristic massive thud of the front foot coming down or the back foot arriving to supplement the front foot’s “down”, as in Bengquan. One of the quick giveaways in a lot of westerners’ demonstrations of Xingyiquan’s Wuxingquan is that there is not that characteristic heavy weighting of the foot. I should caveat, that this massive down-power onto the foot is found in many/most CMA’s, BTW, not just Xingyiquan.
A good example can be found in the following video of a Bajiquan practitioner doing a hit but claiming that it is Chen-style hitting. Chen-style uses the same physical principles, but they approach it somewhat differently. Watch your favorite westerner doing Xingyiquan punches and watch/listen to the feet … without massive down-power the strong out-power of the punching can’t be derived.